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English Increase the grenade timer?

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Poll Poll

Increase the grenade timer?

Only registered users are allowed to vote
no, make the delay even shorter!
7.89% (6)
no, keep it as it is (1.3 sec)!
25.00% (19)
yes, slightly increase it (1.6 secs)!
10.53% (8)
yes, increase it (1.8 secs)!
40.79% (31)
yes, increase it very much (>2.0 secs)!
5.26% (4)
I do not care!
10.53% (8)
76 votes cast

old Re: Increase the grenade timer?

fragezeichen
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well since it's trendy now i'd like to introduce my self as the 'uber-pro' playing since b 0.1.0.1 ... blablabla ...

i think this topic is not really about the grenade timer, it's more about in what direction cs2d is going.

a) real eSports, b) just another fun-game

you're argueing that the grenades are 'godlike' weapons, better than primary weapons, they destroy the game and so on.
how come you get to that conclusion?
You showed up with some good examples:
- in construction mod the grenades are very powerful
- on the de_cs2d map, they are a MUST

all this leads to just one answer of my question:
you're a typical 'public' gamer, playing on public servers.

OF COURSE he grenades kill many players if you play 16vs16 on a construction server. I mean even if every grenade would cause only 10 damage, that would be already 160 damage, ignoring that a nade can make damage to more than one player at the same time.
or if you play 8vs8 on de_cs2d on such a small map you can easily say a grenade does 20 damage, so you get the same result, that the hes do a lot of damage.

however, if you play 1on1, 2on2, 3on3, 4on4 and even 5on5 matches, it's totally different. analysing the power of he grenades and flash bangs in real matches/clanwars would lead to a totally different result.
since de_* maps are 'standart' for such matches, the cts can use positions where they are quite safe from grenades and use their grenades to destroy terror rushes.
On the other hand, the terrorist can use their grenades to cause some chaos in the defense of the cts in order to rush through the weak point then.
it's called tactic.
however, it's nearly impossible to create tactics with which you can kill players only with hes. Same with the flash bangs, since for every flash bang there can be a flash bang thrown back.

so in real matches with teamplay, with tactics, money management and all the other features needed, the grenades are fully balanced!

now if we look to our big brother called Counter-Strike 1.6 the answer is pretty easy where cs2d should go.
Btw. in cs 1.6 if you play 16vs16 on public servers, pretty much as many players are killed every round by hes as in the cs2d public servers.
however cs 1.6 strongly supports a team based game style.

and that's the right way to go!
so leave it at 1.3s, yes, we can!

old Re: Increase the grenade timer?

spartan029
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roKusho has written
Well dc what did u vote for? whats ur opinion ? and reason ?


I highly doubt that DC even cares for this. its not like he plays cs2d every day. Only sometimes to test and just for the hell of it.

old Re: Increase the grenade timer?

roKusho
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spartan029 has written
roKusho has written
Well dc what did u vote for? whats ur opinion ? and reason ?


I highly doubt that DC even cares for this. its not like he plays cs2d every day. Only sometimes to test and just for the hell of it.



I think dc Cares else he wouldnt do so much , Anyways hmm i think its going 2 be 1.8

old Re: Increase the grenade timer?

Kazuya
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hehe we all know cs2d is a Game with Potential for 1 of the best MP Games, and it could be it when a real Company would stand behind this

old Re: Increase the grenade timer?

Lee
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This is in response to 3rr0r's point.

While you have an absolutely valid argument that I agree almost completely on, you are leaving out one crucial analysis, the balance of the micro portion (or the individual gameplay portion) of the game.

You've proven that the grenade is perfectly balanced for the macro level of the game (totality of gameplay), I perfectly agree. And you've also proven that the individual plays of the grenade would generally not affect the overall gameplay since they counter balance each other, I agree with that as well.

You are however omitting an entire aspect of the gameplay.

Think of it this way, the main advantage garnered from carrying a grenade is from the fact that a grenade can be activated in a relatively short time that almost prevents any type of recuperation after the grenade is thrown. Here we assume that the players are all playing in a competitive atmosphere as you have suggested and the norm for the delta between the landing and the actual position of the player is as minimal as possible (based on the player's ability).

In this case, the advantage of the grenade almost always outweighs any other factors of the latter player. If you really do repeated samples of players with grenade playing against slightly better players with no grenades, the outcome would usually be in favor of the former. (The subjectivity here is in part due to the insignificance of the subjective differences in the level of skill).

We're not saying that the grenade is unbalanced from a macro view of the strategic layout of the game. In fact we absolutely agree with everything you've said up to the point about preserving the timer. We're talking about balancing the micro level of the gameplay by reducing the timer.

The balance of the game is codependent on a mixture of the macro and micro levels of balance, the optimal balance point would be to have both the macro and the micro levels balanced at the same time.

Thus the optimal solution would be that while the macro level is not influenced by the micro level (as you've proven to us, changing the timer of the nade does not affect this property), we should go ahead and balanced the micro level of the gameplay by decreasing the timer on the grenade (as I've just reasserted).
edited 2×, last 18.09.09 10:30:10 pm

old Re: Increase the grenade timer?

DC
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@Kazuya:
in first instance you would have to pay money when a realy company would stand behind it.

many would stop playing then.

however that's TOTALLY off-topic

old Re: Increase the grenade timer?

Pro
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roKusho has written
hmm i think its going 2 be 1.8


Or 1.6 to atleast tilt the favor to the "no" people abit more.
Considering the main 2 sides are the "no" and "yes 1.8",
implementing something which would atleast favor both sides would be 1.6 as DC put it on the poll, considering 1.6 is the middle between "no keep it as it is" and "yes, increase it 1.8"

EDIT @ Kazuya:
it has been proven many times before that when big companies take over, the games get to be shittier.
because in general the company only aims at the income of the money, and not the quality of the games they make.
afcourse this is not true in all cases, but in most they are.

old Re: Increase the grenade timer?

D1
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Pro has written
se_ba has written
we talking about game, then people who want change smth should give real name! probably u aren't play in 1.03 or u very unliked people - say ur name ! dont be annonymous !


The beautiful thing about the internet is that you can stay anonymous. Some people don't want to be known, some do.
What are you? internet police?
If you really think being anonymous on CS2D means your "unliked" then your really biased and I'd advice you to stop talking to me, thanks.


lol @ internet police

leegao has written
I disagree, I've been playing this game since 0.1.0.1 right after CS2D came back online and I absolutely despise the new grenades. On top of that, I do still feel that the diagonal bug should be reimplemented, even if it's not going to be accepted. Does that make me any more of a noob?

For those of you wondering, it's incredibly difficult to master the grenade techniques in pre-max cs2d. The level of coordination required is much more exhausting than those of simple shooting. Nowadays, anyone can kill with a grenade. No one needs to 'master' anything beyond pointing at the specific spot on the map, and the grenade has become a favorite of beginners who just loves to bombard rather then shoot. 95% of the time the grenade will do more damage then those from other weapons requiring a higher level of coordination.

Totally agree with this, and I would still love to have the diagonal bug reimplemented.

old Re: Increase the grenade timer?

An0n
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Ecstasy has written
Totally agree with this, and I would still love to have the diagonal bug reimplemented.


Yep I agree with Ecstasy. The game was honestly much better "pre-max". Pings didn't matter so much, CS:2D was more challenging and fun.

If we can't bring back the duplicate of Alpha, maybe you could implement the diagonal bug?

old Re: Increase the grenade timer?

Scyther
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I like the timer as it is now.

Reason for this when you increase the timer:

When you throw the grenade; it will lay on the ground for [X] seconds more as an example -> Based on how far you throw the grenade and the timer. (since the travel distance sometimes already deplete the timer so.)

When you throw the grenade when the timer is already depleted it will explode immediately when its done travelling its distance (pointer). (This is especially useful for flashbangs since the grenade does not specifically wait for its flashing effect.)

Well now when you throw a grenade close to you (Like in nowadays version 1.1.5) it will lay on the ground for like ~1 second. (+ 0,3 second of travel distance roughly)

In other words; Increasing the timer will get you harder to kill enemy's with grenades since the enemy has more time to flee.

old Re: Increase the grenade timer?

Pro
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This topic is about the grenade timer of the current version, quit smuggling the diagonal bug into this.

An0n said: The game was honestly much better "pre-max". Pings didn't matter so much, CS:2D was more challenging and fun.

Lets see, classic CS2D had no:
construction mode
deathmatch mode
team deathmatch mode
zombie mode
more mp_ commands
more sv_ commands
more weapons
better graphics and quality in general
Unreal Software Gaming Network account feature
better anti-hack system
spray transfer
map transfer
more server settings and commands
more map editor entities
and alot more I didn't mention.

So if you really think the old CS2D which can be hacked by a 5 year old, has only 1 standard mode, less weapons, no spray/map transfer, where you always need to shout "type uprate 1!!" to new players, etc etc is alot more "challenging and fun" then your horribly mistaken. The only reason to play the old CS2D is to feel the nostalgia and memories from the good old days. Players that join CS2D now will have no reason whatsoever to play the old and outdated game.

Scyther said: Increasing the timer will get you harder to kill enemy's with grenades since the enemy has more time to flee.

And that's exactly what's neccesary now, because enemies have too less time to flee.
If you atleast read the whole grenade issue, you'll see how overpowered the HE and Flashbang currently are.
edited 2×, last 19.09.09 01:58:54 pm

old Re: Increase the grenade timer?

New Rex
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Pro has written
Scyther said: Increasing the timer will get you harder to kill enemy's with grenades since the enemy has more time to flee.

And that's exactly what's neccesary now, because enemies have too less time to flee.
If you atleast read the whole grenade issue, you'll see how overpowered the HE and Flashbang currently is.


That's truth. I got really mad when the so-called pros throw me a HE and I don't have time to run. -.-

old Re: Increase the grenade timer?

Vibhor
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A more time limit will be better but it can be broken so no cons for this one
you can just throw a bouncing one at the enemy so that it blasts right infront of him and no time to escape
INCREASE IT

old closed Re: Increase the grenade timer?

Kazuya
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Pro has written
@ Kazuya:
it has been proven many times before that when big companies take over, the games get to be shittier.
because in general the company only aims at the income of the money, and not the quality of the games they make.
afcourse this is not true in all cases, but in most they are.


No, a professional Work on cs2d would only Help it

Admin/mod comment

please, stop this shit NOW /Lee

old Re: Increase the grenade timer?

Pro
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Kazuya has written
Pro has written
@ Kazuya:
it has been proven many times before that when big companies take over, the games get to be shittier.
because in general the company only aims at the income of the money, and not the quality of the games they make.
afcourse this is not true in all cases, but in most they are.


No, a professional Work on cs2d would only Help it


First you said a company, now you say "professional work".
You assume that only a company can do "professional" work,
which is false.

old Re: Increase the grenade timer?

fragezeichen
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*cough* off-topic *cough*

b2t:

@lee:
of course it would be balanced in the end, both teams play a fixed amount of rounds on each side, so even if one he would have the same explosion as a normal bomb, it would be balanced...

however the game play would be radically different.

have you considered how far you can walk in 1.8s?, 0.5s more walking, that's at least 2-3 tiles, which brings you out of the damage range easily.
you could ge flashed only on very very opened areas.

since cs2d max the game got soo much faster, the players can move much faster, it takes less bullets to kill someone, grenades got faster, the explosions stronger, the flash stronger. everything got so much more intense.
it's NOT the same anymore, cs2d max is a different game then cs2d b 0.1.0.1-4.
After being an opponent of cs2d max for a long time, i'm just beginning to understand how the changes affect the game. we're just beginning to understand how to play the different maps, how to execute tactics and rushes.
in cs 1.6 it took at least 2 years to understand how to play the popular maps. (eg. de_nuke used to be terror map, nowadays it's more considered to be a ct map).

now cs2d is in a similar stage as cs 1.6 used to be years ago.
i think it's very early to come up with a solution of increasing the grenade time by 0.5s, i mean that's 40% more!, the last time something got changed in such a big dimension was when the deagle could kill someone with 3 shots and that got changed just one version later.

and to me it seems like a very simple and trivial solution. any other solution hasn't even nearly been considered.

again comparing cs2d with cs 1.6, what's the big difference?, in cs 1.6 the grenades take about the same time to explode, their even much much faster AND can be thrown much much further. however he kills are very difficult too.
but, the range of damage is much smaller, in cs2d just one player fits behind a small box (1 tile x 1 tile) in cs 1.6 you can put just about 2 behind a small box.

so what's about changing the range of damage instead of the grenade timer?
leave the game as fast as it is now, but make it harder to do hits with the he.
instead of making it easier to dodge the grenades, you make it harder to do serious damage with the he!

now the flash, well the difference is much more obvious, in cs 1.6 you just turn around and your screen gets slightly more white. in cs2d you look where ever you want, your screen stays fully white for 2 seconds.
in my post above i stated that this only slows down the game as the players can't really react properly.

so what's about adding this feature to cs2d?
don't put that slow down of the game 0.5s later, instead add a feature which needs more skill to be used, add a features which makes it more difficult to use flash effeciently again.

and now for all the b 0.1.0.1-4 fans, both changes would make the game much more similar these version, instead of just changing the grenade timer to 1.8s

old Re: Increase the grenade timer?

Pro
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fragezeichen has written
don't put that slow down of the game 0.5s later, instead add a feature which needs more skill to be used, add a features which makes it more difficult to use flash effeciently again.

actually, increasing the timer makes it automatically require you to need more skill to use it efficiently, because you don't just point at an estimate of where your enemy is heading to and throw, and wait for the superfast explosion of which your enemy has no chance to dodge from. instead, with higher timer, it will require a much higher form of estimate and tactical mind to throw your grenade correctly to the place where it will affect your enemy succesfully. afcourse this is harder because of the longer timer. but that's what makes a player skillfull, the good timing and estimation. it will in generally increase the gameplay in a much more competetive atmosphere, not just point and click.
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