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First of all DC, I appreciate your work and I highly respect it. I have been playing CS2D for a very long time now,
and I'd like to point out some issues regarding how the grenades work in CS2D after version 0.1.0.4 or Max how it was called.
The grenade speed in old CS2D was really slow,
so easy to see coming and thus easy to dodge and get no/minimal damage, making the grenades not a big part of gameplay but rather a little helpful tool to use on your enemies for specific reasons.
Now in new CS2D, the grenades get thrown very fast and explode pretty quickly, making it hard to move away from it without losing damage/high damage. With Flashbangs it's pretty much the same case, because you can hardly duck behind cover before it flashes your eyes. Afcourse this depends on the map and if there's alot of walls to get cover from, but in general it's really hard next to impossible in some cases. The Smoke Grenade and Flare are less of an issue, as they do not pose a real threat to the enemy, but the 2 mentioned above really do. So considering how valuable the grenades are because of their fast speed and fast explosion, it can be considered MORE then just a "little helpful tool" that it was in the old CS2D.
In maps like de_cs2d, you'll really spot the difference.
You'll notice how HE's and Flashbangs are a MUST on these small maps to actually play competetivly, which makes the grenades some kind of "God" weapon, which it is not suppose to be. The real kills and primary focus on taking out an enemy is with a handgun/rifle etc. just like it is in real life and in CS 1.6 of which this game is primarily based on. But in the current CS2D, grenades are really overpowered, especially in small maps like de_cs2d or construction maps where players litterely bombard an area with constant HE's that their Supply structure is laying down on the ground, it's like CS2D has changed into: CS2D - Artillery Wars or: CS2D - Grenade Wars.
The primary weapons really get no good function in these situations. In the old CS2D your primary weapons were the basic way to kill an enemy, even in de_cs2d, but now the grenades are really getting a bit overpowered,
not as in that HE's do alot of damage, but how fast they explode.
If you have the grenade option set on: By Crosshair,
it litterely explodes right where your crosshairs aim at..
So let's say you aim right on your character's head and you throw a grenade, it will explode right on you as if the grenade never had a timer.
I would atleast expect some sort of timer for the grenades, especially the overpowered HE and Flashbang.
The damage and speed is okay, not overpowered,
but how fast the grenade explodes is just overpowered and makes it a vital equipment to have, which grenades are not suppose to be. A way to balance this, is to have a timer on the grenades.. Say your character pulls the handle and throws the grenade, it lands on the ground and after 2 seconds it explodes, not instantly like it currently is. This would make it pretty much balanced and would make the artillery/bombardment maps where grenades are so overpowered balanced too.
Look at any Counter-Strike 3D, you'll see the primary function of eliminating an enemy is with your primary weapons that shoot bullets, not grenades. To make the grenades of CS2D usefull by giving it tactical abilities and not it being a simple overpowered grenade mainly used for taking out enemies just like your M4A1 does, you'll need to balance it out. The timer idea is my opinion, but there could be others.
It would be nice to see de_cs2d/construction maps being played without constant bombardment and nuclear attacks by the overpowered HE's and Flashbangs where you can't run from. Yes sure, HE's are made to kill enemies, but it's primary function is not that. Grenades have tactical abilities such as making a group of enemies give away a spot by throwing a grenade there, so you basically cleaned the area because they moved away, and such as using it to purposly make your enemy duck away from his cover so you can take a shot with him with your primary weapons. I'd appreciate it if it would be less of a "CS2D: Grenade Wars" game.
Remember, I'm not bashing anything or being ignorant,
I'm not commanding around, I'm just stating my opinion on how maps like de_cs2d's gameplay are being ruined by the overpowered grenades.
In short:
HE's damage it causes to you is fine.
HE's throw speed is fine for some certain extent.
What makes it so overpowered is how it directly explodes after it reached the point you aimed at with your crosshairs, making it hard to avoid getting any damage by moving away from it, someone with 10HP or less is bound to get killed this way.
Same issue with the Flashbang, except that it's hard to avoid getting flashed, obviously it depends on the map and how much of walls there are to take cover from, but because they explode right where you throw at, it could be considered overpowered in general.
The Smoke Grenade and Flare, and all the other non-standard grenades like Gas Grenades and Molotov Cocktails are less of an issue, as they have their justified reasons to explode fast, but the main 2 overpowered grenades in standard gameplay are the HE's and Flashbangs. Wao... longest post I've seen in AGES here. lolol
I think the grenades are too slow, because even though some people might throw grenades up really high, I don't think they're that slow... <.<
But that's fine anyway because it's a game. 
If you're really pissed at the grenades, learn to work with them. Simple solution. Wow...
Use the Lab man, that is where you put suggestions!
Man, it is all how 'pro' you really are too. You can master throwing them sure, but the true balanced player will also know how to dodge them.
Prepare to get shut down. Pro COMMUNITY BANNED Offline
horus has written
Wao... longest post I've seen in AGES here. lolol
I think the grenades are too slow, because even though some people might throw grenades up really high, I don't think they're that slow... <.<
But that's fine anyway because it's a game.
If you're really pissed at the grenades, learn to work with them. Simple solution.
Forums are made for posts, no matter how long.
I already know how to dodge grenades, but I'm talking in general here, not for myself.
I'm not pissed, try jumping less into conclusions..
@Nil Kemorya
I play CS2D since 0.1.0.3, that's how many years ago?
You make the math. I have far more experience then you,
if you want to flame me for my opinion, go ahead, trolls like you achieve nothing on a forum. This is about CS2D, not about the lab, because I'm not suggesting something, I'm discussing about an issue. Pro, you obviously did not do much "hands-on" research huh. The option Distance by cross hair does not determine the amount of time the nade has until it explodes. The nade takes 1-2 secs to explode of thrown right on top of your player. It explodes immediately if thrown to the maximum extent of the screen. The nades are just fine. If you cant dodge one when you see it coming, then I'm sorry but you cannon be that good. Pro COMMUNITY BANNED Offline
spartan029 has written
Pro, you obviously did not do much "hands-on" research huh. The option Distance by cross hair does not determine the amount of time the nade has until it explodes. The nade takes 1-2 secs to explode of thrown right on top of your player. It explodes immediately if thrown to the maximum extent of the screen. The nades are just fine. If you cant dodge one when you see it coming, then I'm sorry but you cannon be that good.
I have years of experience and have done countless of research. I never said it explodes determined by the amount of time the nade has until it explodes with that option on.
And now it doesn't take 1-2 secs untill it explodes, even if you aim at your head, it explodes half a second. That's like if in real life you pull the handle and after a half second it explodes right infront of your face.
I don't think you see the point about the issue. The half of the issue is that in a normal standard match of evenly skilled players against eachother, the player that gets a HE throwed on has little chance to dodge without losing atleast about 10hp, because of the immediate explosion after the thrower aimed near you. The other half of the issue and probably a more important one, is that on maps like de_cs2d and construction maps where HE's are overly overpowered are used like artillery to constantly bombard areas, changing it into "who throws more HE's at the other wins" while it should be a good gameplay where players use their guns to show off tactics, strategies, and dodge+aim skills instead of being a human artillery firing HE after HE, making it an grenade war. < This is especially true for de_cs2d + construction maps like I stated many times before. In standard maps like de_dust this is sometimes the case too. My point is to make the game more tactical like instead of grenade war-like, which is easily balanced and fixed by having a little bit bigger timer on the HE and Flashbang particularly. Lee Moderator Offline
note the labs are currently closed so this is the only effective way of communicating with the community with problems/concerns regarding CS2D so you have a green light to express your opinion. Don't get me wrong. The nades may be strong but they are a part of all tactical warfare. In games and real life. But in real like when you pull the pin you have (with standard grenades) 10 seconds. I stand my ground with the nades are fine. I believe they are just fine. Do you realize what would happen if the nades were changed to any degree? It would cause madness all though out cs2d. And also it seems like you don't like noobs in a free game?
Also what is so bad about losing 10 HP? I can get away without losing 1 HP! And on maps like de_cs2d there aren't many players. So unless grenade rebuy is on (which it never is cause its gay) a team can't "constantly bombard" one location. Your not the only one that has been playing cs2d for a long time. With the flash bang... I see nothing wrong with it. No damage all it does is turn your screen white for 3 seconds (6 if you have 40FPS or lower). Pro COMMUNITY BANNED Offline
spartan029 has written
Don't get me wrong. The nades may be strong but they are a part of all tactical warfare. In games and real life. But in real like when you pull the pin you have (with standard grenades) 10 seconds. I stand my ground with the nades are fine. I believe they are just fine. Do you realize what would happen if the nades were changed to any degree? It would cause madness all though out cs2d. And also it seems like you don't like noobs in a free game?
Also what is so bad about losing 10 HP? I can get away without losing 1 HP! And on maps like de_cs2d there aren't many players. So unless grenade rebuy is on (which it never is cause its gay) a team can't "constantly bombard" one location. Your not the only one that has been playing cs2d for a long time. With the flash bang... I see nothing wrong with it. No damage all it does is turn your screen white for 3 seconds (6 if you have 40FPS or lower).
I don't see how it would cause madness throughout CS2D? In the old CS2D the grenade throw was horribly slow and it looked like it went slowmotion, but nobody complained about that because it's just a matter of getting used to it. No I don't dislike "noobs", what makes you think so?
What so bad is about losing 10HP is if you already have 10HP or lower, as an example.. 10HP + Enemy has HE = certain death for you. Basically ur trapped, death zone, no escape from the fast exploding HE, no tactics just plain dead< Taking into consideration that both players are evenly skilled. Actually on de_cs2d it's not that they bombard with grenade_rebuy on, it's more that each teammate buys a HE because it's overpowered and very valuable in de_cs2d as explained before, so players pick up HE's from dead players and basically hunt an enemy (like a Terrorist in bombspot "A" death trap) while bombarding him with 2 or 3 HE's = he dies. No tactical value. Again, take the deathtrap for the Terrorists at bombspot "A", a Flashbang could have the same effect.. Sure it doesn't do damage but it makes your enemy blind for some very valuable seconds of which he cannot see what his enemies are doing.. Again, bombarding with Flashbangs can cause you to be blind for 6 seconds or so,
of which your enemy can do plenty of tricks and surprises on you. Take note that really good examples of this issue is de_cs2d and construction maps where people build Supplies and constantly pick up and throw the HE's,
but in pretty much alot of cases this is also true for de_dust.
Now what would you prefer?
1) That HE's + Flashbangs are very important and is a must to play competetively because of their effectiveness and overpoweredness
2) That HE's + Flashbangs are rather "side" tools usefull for certain situations, while your primary weapons handle most kills.
2) < would look alot more realistic, and CS'like.
Having these 2 grenades balanced out so enemies atleast have a decent chance and improve the basic gameplay. (Sigh) You act like it is impossible to dodge a incoming nade! It is so EASY! I don't see why you are so obsessed with this. See a nade is someones hand, RUN! take out your damn knife and run! its that simple. If you are surrounded then that's your fault for not being tactical. If your new to a map, then live and learn! I really don't see why they are so important to you. im gonna show you some things ive made but not released them, ask me if you like any of those
(the STW have sound and bat too)
and there are more but im just showing you guys the next weapons im going to release (maybe ill not upload the bat
) Admin/mod comment
that's totally off-topic. stop that /DC DC Admin Offline
spartan029 has written
But in real like when you pull the pin you have (with standard grenades) 10 seconds
I've thrown grenades in real life. they don't have a 10 seconds timer. it's about 3 seconds.
moreover the pin just loosens a little lever which is held by you until the grenade leaves your hand. it then flicks and activates the "timer". the pin itself doesn't start the countdown. there are grenades which use another technique but the grenades in cs (and cs2d) are using this one (you can see the "lever", fixed by the pin, on the pictures http://csnation.totalgamingnetwork.com/content/csinfo/images/weapons/hegren_a.jpg )
@Pro:
first of all: thank you very much for the detailed critique!
Pro has written
What makes it so overpowered is how it directly explodes after it reached the point you aimed at with your crosshairs, making it hard to avoid getting any damage by moving away from it, someone with 10HP or less is bound to get killed this way.
as said before: this only happens when you throw it the maximum distance. the grenades do have a timer and it always takes the same time until they explode - no matter how far you throw.
moreover you've spoken much about de_cs2d. this is not a "regular" map like de_dust or de_aztec. it's just a little fun map. it's much smaller and has very narrow passages. of course grenades are very effective on maps like that.
what really does matter is the gameplay on real/serious maps. it's a huge difference because it's often easier to evade and find cover here. I already weakened HE grenades by setting 
mp_curtailedexplosions to 1 by default. so if a wall disrupts a direct line from you to the grenade you will not take any damage. even with 10 hp: you can survive it. it shouldn't be too hard for good players to find cover or to run away fast by quickly selecting the knife. I often see how players manage to run away from grenades without taking much/any damage.
therefore I don't think that the timer has to be increased. however a setting for it would be appropriate. I'll consider that. edited 1×, last 15.09.09 03:13:30 pm
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@spartan029:
It's not an issue of the individual's skills that estimate if you'll get any damage by moving away from the grenade, but
I'm rather talking in GENERAL for everybody, for the gameplay's sake. I know how to dodge grenades and I dodge them with ease, my average score is about 10 kills for each 1 death on a standard competetive de_dust map against other skilled players. As you see this grenade issue is not of big importance to me, but I'm rather speaking in general, it's not like I've personally got a problem with them.. You make it sound like I personally have a problem with them, which is not. Btw about your "see a nade in their hand? run!" part, sorry buddy but a good skilled player wouldn't reveal his HE, he'd reveal it for half a second by swapping to his grenade equipment then immediatly throw it, so basically he only reveals his nade when he's throwing it at you, which is less then half a second, you can't see that coming. I don't think your that experienced in CS2D.
@DC:
The "big distance quick explosion, small distance longer time" grenade timers of now don't really differ from eachother, you don't really notice it because the current explosion times are pretty quick. It doesn't mean this is bad, it's just that the gameplay itself with grenades involved gets a bit ruined, refer to my "Grenades as a usefull sidearm instead of a overpowered kill weapon".
Your pretty correct of the "fun maps" point, but making those 2 grenades explode a bit later wouldn't hurt on the gameplay on any other map. The "10HP + enemy HE = certain death" issue still counts for any map including de_dust. A decent aimed HE throw would knock out an enemy 10HPer or less which he cannot dodge without speed hacking because of it's fast explosion<considering both players are evenly skilled.
It's really a matter of taste on gameplay.. I just find it alot more "Unreal Tournament super blast destroy everything"
with the overpowered HE's + Flashbangs rather then "Counter-Strike tactical modern warfare" style where grenades are just usefull tools just like in real life, but not mainly used to wreak havoc. Anyhow thanks for the responce, I don't think a setting for the nade timer would be a good idea, since it wouldn't count as standard gameplay (standard gameplay is the default settings when downloading CS2D) so the setting would be pretty much overlooked, I'm more searching of developing the real gameplay. DC Admin Offline
I changed my mind. I looked at the code and found out that the timer is 1.3 secs only.
I'll start a vote about that. Well this is gonna stir up controversy. I had a message for you Pro but my cat pulled the plug out of the computer and i could never repeat what i wrote plus, and i quote DC, I am to lazy. There is a 1 second delay between switching to a gun and firing after throwing a grenade. Is that delay supposed to be there? Pro COMMUNITY BANNED Offline
SLITHERS has written
There is a 1 second delay between switching to a gun and firing after throwing a grenade. Is that delay supposed to be there?
I think yes, and justified..
Else you'd be able to throw a nade, then immediatly shoot with your rifle. DC Admin Offline
Joe User Offline
I have to disagree with Pro. Most beginners do not know how to change the options so the distance is relative to the crosshair rather than a constant. This makes grenades very easy to dodge. Also, only about 5-10% of players really know how to bounce the grenades well and it takes even more skill to know when to rush forward and when to retreat when a grenade is thrown. It all depends on your skill and adaptability which determines how important grenades are to you rather than the timer. Pro COMMUNITY BANNED Offline
Joe has written
I have to disagree with Pro. Most beginners do not know how to change the options so the distance is relative to the crosshair rather than a constant. This makes grenades very easy to dodge. Also, only about 5-10% of players really know how to bounce the grenades well and it takes even more skill to know when to rush forward and when to retreat when a grenade is thrown. It all depends on your skill and adaptability which determines how important grenades are to you rather than the timer.
What has the relative/constant range of grenades option have to do with the fast explosion issue?
The difference between beginners and veterans alike have nothing to do with gameplay itself. Skilled players are able to make out the maximum of his abilities and tactical mind when dodging a HE, thus losing minimal/no damage. This is always the case, no matter how overpowered or weakened the grenade is. The only bit is that they have to adjust to the gameplay and calculate the new gameplay's mechanics so they can get the most out of it < being skilled. This topic isn't about the individual that knows/doesn't knows how to handle grenades, it's about the overpowered HE's & Flashbangs that affect the gameplay itself. 
CS2D 
CS2D Grenade Issues
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